Vitalik: Ethereum 2.0 has no unresolved research challenges

Yesterday, the Ethereum research team launched the second AMA (Ask Me Anything) on ​​the r/Ethereum platform. Five months ago, the Ethereum research team launched the first AMA. Unitimes had previously compiled the main contents of the AMA at the time. For details, see Eth 2.0 AMA | Vitalik: I am full of confidence in Ethereum 2.0! 》. Today, we summarize the main content of this AMA.

The AMA was mainly answered by Eitafang founder Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum 2.0 researchers Danny Ryan, Justin Drake and Carl Beekhuizen.

DCinvestor : What do you think is the biggest unresolved challenge in the Eth 2.0 study before implementing Phase 1 or Phase 2 of Eth 2.0 in the future?

Vitalik Buterin : I really don't think there are currently unresolved research challenges. In terms of research, it is mainly "how do we implement it more elegantly and take up less lines of code and fewer edge cases".

Danny Ryan : There is a need to better understand the incentives and various actors that may be involved in stateless and highly abstract execution models. In order to better understand the relevant design and actively build prototypes to review relevant ideas, the EWASM team of the Ethereum Foundation and the Quilt team of ConsenSys have done a lot of work.

Ethical-trade : I didn't want to ask questions. I just wanted to thank you all the investors and fans. Although there are always people who complain, most of us are very supportive of your efforts. We are very grateful to you for building a decentralized future.
DCinvestor : Previously, the informal release date for Phase 0 (the beacon chain) was January 2020. Do you think this date is realistic?

Carl Beekhuizen : Thank you for noting that this date is an informal date 🙂 Launching early next year (beacon chain) is my personal goal, but there is still a lot to do before that! The things we need to accomplish are: a long-running test network (regardless of how this is defined), a formal verification of the deposit contract, and a ready (Eth 2.0) client, but now it looks like everything It will all be completed on time . We also don't want to rush out a software client with a lot of bugs in order to catch up with an arbitrary date.

Danny Ryan : Every (Eth 2.0) client team is doing very well and continues to challenge the limits. I look forward to exciting progress in the coming months, but I also expect the final trip to be long. At the beginning of 2020 (starting the beacon chain) is very realistic and our goal.

Dmihal : My biggest concern with Eth 2.0 is that it kills composability. Isn't most dapps (decentralized applications) ultimately chosen to be built in the same shard chain? Just like building a shard chain with MakerDAO so they can use Dai?

Justin Drake : The composability between the pieces is undoubtedly an unknown area, but we have reason to remain optimistic:

  • In order to facilitate cross-sharding transactions, all shards are designed to be homogenous (this is different from Polkadot or Cosmos);

  • There are some design patterns that abstract the boundaries between slices. These design patterns will be easier to use in a programmable execution engine.

  • Due to the verifier's proof of fragmentation, each slice is designed to be friendly to achieve "fast optimistic finality", and the proof of fragmentation is similar to block validation on the current Eth 1.0 chain. That is to say, in practice, since a single slice can quickly achieve finality, all slices can act as a logical blockchain.

  • The UI (user interface) layer can also abstract the boundaries between slices.

Nicknle : I just want to say… the whole team and project are great. You have to face a lot of noise from the market, but it is really encouraging to see your unwavering optimism and positive attitude to benefit the world and break through the boundaries of technology, finance and society. Keep working hard, guys.

Danny Ryan : Thank you! I am just trying to get things moving forward, not too concerned about market volatility and those noises.

Avenger176 : Why are so many teams building Eth 2.0 clients? I know the importance of client diversity, but don't you think it seems that six clients will bring more pressure? Supporting so many clients also requires more resources to be allocated in terms of funding. Which client do you think will be the Ethereum 2.0 Geth and Parity client?

Justin Drake : There are a few things to note about client diversity:

  • More than 6 clients are currently being developed, but 8;
  • I expect the client to merge – some clients will probably not be able to survive 2020;
  • I anticipate that each client will be specialized – a client will focus on the browser (such as Lodestar), or focus on resource-constrained devices (such as Nimbus), or focus on the enterprise (such as Artemis), or focus on For prototyping (such as Trinity) and so on;
  • When the (beacon chain) is started, at least two clients are required to be in production ready state. I expect the advantage of the first move will be strong;
  • To some extent, all of the above have occurred on the Eth 1.0 old chain.

Vitalik Buterin : We definitely don't want to see the situation of a duo ! Personally, the ideal situation is that no client has more than 1/3 of the total network, so any software error in any client will not cause the entire network to stop working. Although there is no client which will have more than 1/2 of the total network, this is no problem and can bring us the same benefits. I hope that the nodes of the network will have a power-law distribution, and it is very likely that some of them will not be heavily used on the main network .

Danny Ryan : I think all of this client will do the hard work because Eth 2.0 is not only a purely technical challenge, but also an opportunity to leave a footprint in Ethereum and cryptocurrency . I am very happy to see that there are so many excellent teams doing this difficult job, but recently, I am more focused on finding contributors to do value-added work beyond the core client implementation, such as formal verification, agreement academics. Analysis, testing, light client, web3 interface and developer tools, a verifier client with access to any underlying node and a strong user experience (UX), and more.

PurpleHamster : How do you refute the overly complicated crit about Eth 2.0?

Vitalik Buterin : In the past year, it has become quite simple . If you do word counts on the Eth 2.0 specification, there will be fewer words in the current specification than in the Ethereum Yellow Book. There are many things in Eth 2.0 that are much simpler than Eth 1.0. But there are certainly some complications left, and I am very concerned about minimizing complexity.

Justin Drake : Although the path of research is a bit tortuous and difficult to keep up with, the final specification can be said to be simple and straightforward . Expect more educational materials to emphasize the simplicity of current Eth 2.0 designs. Phase 0 requires approximately 1024 lines of code (assuming SHA256 and BLS12-381 are primitives). I expect that Phase 1 and Phase 2 add up to 1024 lines of code (assuming WASM is the primitive).

Avenger176 : What happens when I swindle 32 ETH and slashing it? If my pledge of ETH is fined at least 32 ETH, will I be expelled from the certifier?

Justin Drake : When the verifier is fined, he will be expelled. There is another eviction mechanism, that is, when your accumulated (non-slashing) penalty makes your balance lower than 16 ETH, you will also be expelled.

Danny Ryan : You will also lose a certain amount of ETH. The minimum amount currently set is 1 ETH. There are additional penalties if there are other behaviors that meet the penalty conditions in the near future. If more certifiers have been fined recently, you will lose more ETH. If a recent 1/3 or so verifier is fined, the maximum penalty will be imposed, that is, you will lose all pledge ETH.

Sassal : What are your current plans for moving from Eeh1.0 to Eth2.0?

Vitalik Buterin : The current way is to transfer Eth1.0 as an execution environment into the Eth 2.0 chain. In practice, this means that we will need to perform a hard fork on the Eth1.0 chain to adjust some gas charges (the gas cost of reading the storage or account opcode will rise to 2,000-10,000), after which At some point, we will transfer the state root of the Eth 1.0 chain to the Eth 2.0 system at a block height. My confirmation that the cost of reading the storage/account opcode will increase, contract developers should be aware of this and plan accordingly.

Nichlaes : For those who hold 32 ETH but know little about encryption technology, is it easy to participate in staking? Can “ordinary people” also participate and earn income? Will Staking bring the risk of losing ETH to the use of shares? What I want to know is that unless we "deliberately" do something that is detrimental to the network (for example, because your Internet provider has problems that cause your certifier node to go offline), can we participate in staking without risk?

Justin Drake : I expect that there will be industries in the market for staking, such as infrastructure including staking pools (such as centralized pledge hosting services provided by Coinbase, etc., and other decentralized pledges). There are some plug-and-play "validator in a box" solutions. In terms of risk, for a certifier node that is sometimes offline for a short time, the corresponding penalty should be small.

Tsarlak : Assuming that Ethereum has reached 1 million TPS, the size of the books will increase by 1TB per day. Is there any solution for this? What are your expectations for the growth of the book size? What is the corresponding solution?

Danny Ryan : Eth 2.0 with shards is expected to handle data availability of approximately 10 MB/s. This is the consensus data in the segmentation chain and guarantees that the data is available in about 2 weeks.

The current state of processing and state execution is a "stateless" approach, in which the block must pack the relevant state of Merkle witnesses to complete the execution of the transaction. This will reduce the amount of state that any consensus node must store, but it does raise other questions about the state size, such as who is storing the state, how the user gets the state, and so on.

In fact, the entire state execution is abstracted, so we can try a variety of scenarios to deal with the problem (such as state rent, let users / dapp store their own data, etc.). The state rent that Alexey Akhunov studied over the past year or so will probably work.

Jojojojojojo777 : I have heard a lot about the staking rewards, but what is the penalty for the verifier being slashed? Does the network have different penalties for different misconducts (such as certifier client offline, or repeated signatures)? Is the current "offline 18 days will reduce 60.8%" rule still valid?

Carl Beekhuizen : I think you are confusing slashing and inactivity leak (the penalty for the verifier being inactive).

Inactivity leak means that when the verifier node goes offline for 18 days and the beacon chain stops the "finalizing" process, the amount you pledge will "decrease by 60.8% in 18 days";

Slashing means that when a certifier performs a malicious act, the amount of pledge is reduced. Assuming there is no problem with the client software, slashing is basically unlikely to happen to you. The lowest slashing penalty is 1 ETH, but the penalty will increase with the number of people who are simultaneously fined. For more information on penalties please see:

https://notes.ethereum.org/9l707paQQEeI-GPzVK02lA#Why-are-the-Casper-incentives-set-the-way-they-are

Sassal : What is the most exciting research currently on Eth 2.0's research progress?

Vitalik Buterin : The latest I am most excited about the research at https://ethresear.ch/t/layer-2-state-schemes/5691. The research by Karl Floersch et al. on the Optimistic Virtual Machine (OVM) is also very interesting.

Sassal : Are researchers satisfied with the current economic incentives for Eth 2.0?

Vitalik Buterin : I don't think we need to worry about the specific numbers right now. (Note: V God refers to the total number of ETHs pledged in the beacon chain and the corresponding ETH annual growth rate and the prover's annual rate of return), regardless of the verifier. Say that the corresponding reward is enough, the network will start.

BC_investor : How many Eth 2.0 client teams must deliver the completed client before the beacon chain goes online ?

Justin Drake : At least 2, ideally 3.

Shitshotdead : I am thinking about participating in staking during phase 0, but I am a bit worried about the inactivity leak (punished by inactivity). I want to know how to stop/pause to become a verifier if I change my mind? I asked this question because in some cases, I may be offline for a while, but I don't want my money to be reduced.

Vitalik Buterin : When you are offline, only when more than 1/3 of other certifiers are offline at the same time, the penalty you receive will be great . In addition, the penalty for offline is very small, as long as your online time exceeds 50-67%, then you will be in a net profit state (not including computer costs, etc.). This incentive mechanism is very loose, and the goal is to encourage amateur participants to join in and promote decentralization.

Justin Drake : The way to "pause" to become a verifier is to quit first (this may take only half an hour, but it may take a few days/weeks because there is an exit queuing mechanism) and then (want to re-participate in the verification) Time) It will be activated again.

MysticRyuujin : Does the Eth 2.0 client team feel that their client implementation will be robust enough, secure enough, and easy to use, so that worms like me can safely run the node software they developed and pledge 32 ETH on it? And will not be penalized or lost ETH because of a client bug?

My biggest concern is that I don't commit malicious behavior myself, but I suffer losses due to bugs on the client side. I have been running nodes such as Geth, Parity, Trinity, and EthereumJ (Harmony) for many years. These clients exist much longer than any Eth 2.0 client, but these clients still have problems. Bugs sometimes crash.

Vitalik Buterin : I hope so! (Eth 2.0) One of the keys to incentive design is that only when many other certifiers are offline at the same time, the corresponding penalty (whether offline or because of being penalized) is high. Therefore, any bug that does not attack all nodes at the same time will only cost you a small amount of money.

Ev1501 : I know it's too early, but is there a rough estimate of the freeze time for Phase 1 and Phase 2 specifications?

Carl Beekhuizen : Phase 2 is not yet clear, but I hope that the Phase 1 specification will freeze in the fourth quarter of this year.

Jojojojojojo777 : 1024 sharded chains, which means there are more than 131,000 certifier slots… What if the number of certifiers is not enough when the shards go online?

Carl Beekhuizen : Since there are 1024 sharded chains, 128 certifiers are required in each committee, so at least 131,072 verifiers are required to achieve cross-linking for each shard. If the number of verifiers is less than this number, then some shards will be skipped to ensure that there are 128 certifiers in each committee.

Danny Ryan : The system can handle as low as 64 verifiers. In this case, system security will be significantly reduced, but the protocol can continue to advance technically.

TheGreatMuffin : Please briefly explain why you need to develop a new chain instead of continuing to develop the current old chain?

Justin Drake : Building an Eth 2.0 chain on the Eth 1.0 chain would be a bad design decision for the following reasons:

  • We will be limited by the current Ethe 1.0 chain gas cap, which will seriously affect the performance of the new chain (for example, 1024 strip chains and pledge 32 ETH will not be validated);

  • We will mix the consensus layer and the application layer. This means that the consensus layer will be subject to the DoS vector of the application layer (such as the high gas price);

  • We will be subject to the old chain EVM (Ethernet virtual machine), and it is well known that it is very difficult to securely complex complex contracts into the old chain EVM.

  • The Eth 1.0 chain cannot support BLS12-381;

  • There are other reasons.

Jojojojojojo777 : I don't know if my understanding is correct. Is the number of verifiers more, and the longer it takes for finalize?

Carl Beekhuizen : In the Eth 2.0 chain, more verifiers should not lead to longer finalize time. By using BLS signature aggregation and by grouping verifiers into committees, we are able to accommodate hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of verifiers.

Shitshotdead : I know that it is estimated that about 10 million ETHs need to be pledged to provide sufficient security for the network. Suppose a large organization gets more than 50% of the pledged ETH and uses it to attack the network. What happens to the network? What I understand is that in this case, the party with the smaller total number of pledges will be fined. Can the malicious attacker effectively kill the entire network?

Carl Beekhuizen : If a large participant wants to get a lot of pledge ETH to control the entire network, he will need to buy more than 2/3 of all circulating ETH, and when he buys it will push the ETH price up, so The cost of this attack is very high;

Second, you will be fined only if your behavior is proven malicious by 2/3 of the verifier. One of the great things about the PoS mechanism is that this type of attack can be handled very well. As a community, we can join hands to spread malicious attackers from the current chain through hard forks, so that malicious attackers have no voting rights. The attacker just spent a lot of money to temporarily stop the network.

In the PoW chain, if an attacker buys an ASIC miner with 51% of computing power, there is no way to remove the attacker from the system.

Life-is-a-gif : As an ETH miner, my main concern is how to prepare for Eth 2.0. Do you have any tips or suggestions on how to continue to contribute to Ethereum (and gain profitability)?

Justin Drake : There will be no mining in Eth 2.0. You may be able to lease the computing power of these GPU mining equipment through platforms such as Golem.

Etherider : When will the rate of ETH increase significantly decrease? For example, the increase rate is 10 times lower?

Vitalik Buterin : When the PoS chain begins to carry the PoW chain to ensure safety (this may happen in Phase 1 or Phase 2), then it is safe to reduce the mining bonus of the PoW chain by about 4 times. When the PoW chain is completely stopped, the burst rate will be further reduced.

Jokmok2 : Which of the currently running projects/products can improve the expansion of Ethereum in the short term?

Justin Drake : Layer 2 expansion solutions (Plasma, Rollups, status channels, etc.) can improve scalability in the short term. Unfortunately, building a Layer 1 solution in 2019 still requires a lot of technical complexity, but it's not impossible!

He-calm-nyuen : Is there an incentive for Eth 2.0 to motivate the certifier due to competition from other DeFi products? Will the rate of increase in the future be adjusted accordingly?

Vitalik Buterin : As far as I know, the annualized interest rate of ETH on the Compound platform is 0.02%, so we have a big competitive advantage . "The design of pledge ETH on the Compound platform to get 3% interest rate and lend DAI interest rate to 6%" is misleading because 6% is based on USD (US$) and 3% yield is based on ETH's. But with the emergence of more and more staking forms (such as Plamsa, Trubit and other margin games), ETH's pledged interest rate will slide.

Bob-Rossi : During Phase 0, can Eth 2.0 coins be transferred between wallets? If so, are you concerned that the exchange will be offering Eth 2.0 coins?

Carl Beekhuizen : The transfer of Eth 2.0 coins is only possible by the Stage 1 period, when the exchange will be Eth 2.0. The listing of the exchange will be beneficial to maintain the equivalent between ETH and Eth 2.0.

ConradJohnson : What is the current design for moving Ether tokens from Eth 1.0 to Eth 2.0?

Carl Beekhuizen : It depends on what you mean by "Ether tokens":

  • The verifier can send 32 ETH to the deposit contract, after which the deposit will be transferred to the beacon chain so that the verifier can participate in the beacon chain.

  • For those who just want to transfer ETH from the Eth 1.0 chain to the Eth 2.0 chain, the design has not yet been finalized, but there may be a dedicated bridge between the two chains, or through a mortgage contract. First, the purpose;

  • It is still too early to talk about the transfer of ERC20/721 tokens on the two chains. If the Eth 2.0 chain has an execution engine like the Eth 1.0 chain, then this transfer will be very convenient, but even without the execution engine, it is possible to achieve the transfer by just copying the state root of the ERC20 token.

PrrJn : Sorry my question may be a bit stupid, but I haven't paid attention to Ethereum 2.0 for months. Is there a date for the recent release? How much ETH does pledge need to staking? Can we now know the corresponding rewards? In the Ethereum 2.0 aspect, which aspect are you most proud of? Do you think Binance Chain will be a competitor of Ethereum? Thank you in advance for your time and effort!

Justin Drake : Stage 0 may start as early as January 3, 2020. I think it is likely to be in the first quarter of 2020. A pledge of 32 ETH is required, and the certifier's reward depends on the number of all verifiers, the individual verifier's own performance, and the gas market. I don't think it's surprising that the verifier's annual rate of return is around 10% . I feel most proud of being involved in the construction of this infrastructure that I believe will revolutionize the world in a positive way. The coin chain is not a competitor of Ethereum.

Cdiddy2 : When Sharding starts, does it suddenly have 1024 slice chains? Or is the number of segmented chains increasing with increasing use? I feel that starting a large number of shards in the first place leads to a lot of unused space/capacity.

Carl Beekhuizen : All 1024 segmented chains will be launched at once . Increasing the number of possible slice chains (possibly) can create unnecessary complexity. With a large amount of unused capacity, the price of the gas will be lower, so it will attract more users.

Cockatiel : I thought that the Eth 1.0 chain only needs to be upgraded to the Eth 2.0 chain. There is no need to exchange tokens on the old chain for tokens on the new chain. The number of Eth 2.0 coins will depend on how many people convert Eth 1.0 to Eth 2.0?

Carl Beekhuizen : The Eth 2.0 chain revolutionizes the Eth 1.0 chain, so a better way to upgrade is to implement a completely new chain. The circulation of Eth 2.0 coins does depend to a large extent on how many people convert Eth 1.0 into Eth 2.0. Of course, the Eth 2.0 chain will also issue new coins as a certifier's reward, which will also increase the supply of new coins. But in the end, all Eth 1.0 coins will be converted to Eth 2.0 SGD.

JezSan : With some other blockchain platforms that have implemented thousands of transactions per second (although these platforms don't implement fragmentation), can you imagine that the single-segment chain in Eth 2.0 can also be used with these new ones? & fast blockchain platform" higher? If not, how do these blockchain platforms achieve their high performance? Can Eth 2.0 do the same?

Vitalik Buterin : Are these blockchain platforms really dealing with thousands of transactions per second? Usually my "intuition" is that they boast of throughput that is 10 times their throughput.

If a chain is not active, then I don't believe any numbers about this chain, because the high data that is easily implemented in the lab can't be supported in practice. During the trial, Ethereum itself was able to achieve a TPS of 500-1,000, and Plasma could achieve hundreds of thousands of TPS during the trial.

If these blockchain platforms can actually achieve more than 1,000 TPS in practice, then why are the number of nodes running on the server so at least?

Zlizard : Will stage 0 improve in terms of scalability? With Sharding, what is the transaction volume that Ethereum can handle per second?

Carl Beekhuizen : The goal of Phase 0 is to track the status of the verifier and generate randomness, so it doesn't make much sense to ask about its scalability.

There is no clear answer to the TPS. A basic calculation is that if each slice chain has the same throughput as the current Eth1.0 chain, the throughput of the entire Eth 2.0 system will be: 16*1024=16,384 TPS (assuming there is no cross-segment transaction) ).

Nonetheless, these numbers are meaningless because the Eth 2.0 network will be used with Layer 2 expansion solutions (such as Rollups and OVM), which is expected to result in very high throughput.

Miracolixe : If Eth 2.0 introduces the PoS mechanism, will there be some legal obstacles that need clarification? Can his token be considered a security?

Justin Drake : I don't know which jurisdictions treat ETH tokens on the Eth1.0 chain as securities. Since the ETH tokens on the Eth 2.0 chain are basically the same as the tokens on the chain, the ETH on the new chain. It should not be considered a security.

Compile | Jhonny

Source | r/Ethereum