On November 8, the 2019 World Blockchain Conference hosted by Babbitt, Wuzhen, officially opened at the Wuzhen Internet International Convention and Exhibition Center. In the round table "Minist's Right to Discourse VS Staking's Governance", coin co-founder and CEO Zhu Xi, F2Pool partner and COO big fish, Jia Nan, vice president Zhang Li, Decred Chinese community leader Dominic and host Qu Yinxiang, CEO of ChainNode, had a heated discussion.
▲From left to right: Qu Zhaoxiang, Zhu Xi, Da Yu, Zhang Li, Dominic
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The following is the golden sentence:
Dominic: The hybrid consensus mechanism makes the chain safe under the mine machine's blessing, and the POS ballot mode can return the power to the user. It makes up for the drawbacks of the two mechanisms.
Zhu Xi: The centralization must go POS, Dpos, and alliance chains, because you don't have to consume energy to create credit. Credit can come from the center. Folk, transnational, and many organizations must use decentralized things.
Big Fish: Don't test human nature, don't predict human nature. Through the consensus mechanism of cryptography and mathematics, we don't rely on human nature, letting things run under certain rules through technical means. This is a particularly big innovation we have experienced.
Zhang Li: I think there is a basic idea. All powers are waiting for what you have paid for. All powers are not equal. It must be staged. This stage of unequality will one day be subverted, because it is not balanced, it is as simple as that.
The contents of the round table are as follows, sorted by Babbitt.
Question 1. How do you see two different consensus models for POW and POS?
Both POW and POS have their own drawbacks.
POW will create a separation of powers, and Bitcoin holders have no power in the community. Bitcoin core developers will only develop according to their own community philosophy, and he will not follow user suggestions. The miners are also very powerful, they have the right to issue and trade Bitcoin. Users only have the right to buy and sell. POS is pledge with money, and then build nodes, which will give the rich more voice. If the project only uses POS, the direction of future development will be very unclear and the risks will be great.
The mixed consensus mechanism of POW+POS can make the chain safe under the support of the mining machine, and the POS voting mode can return the power to the user. The mixed consensus mechanism better compensates for the shortcomings of the two mechanisms.
▲ Jia Nan, Vice President of Zhang Zhi, Zhang Li
Do you want to see if Jia Nan and Zhi Zhi will have a battle with POS? In fact, we don’t see it this way.
The blockchain is not just a simple technical issue in nature, it is a very deep social relationship issue. POW can be summarized in four words: distribution by work . POS is somewhat similar to resource allocation. For example, if you are a real estate developer, you have a lot of houses and land resources, then you have a high priority for a long time, this priority is difficult to change.
I don't think POW is the best, POS is not good. From a philosophical or socioeconomic point of view, the social result of resource allocation in general is stratification. Any slave society and feudal society you see, All societies will be subverted after the hierarchy is solidified.
I can see the future, I don't think POS is good, but going down for a long time is the result (subverted). I also don't think POW is the ultimate choice for this world. The blockchain industry has only a decade of history, and we see a lot of new technology directions.
I think the future is not just POW+POS, there are many new ways of consensus. As for Jianan Zhizhi, we are a computing operator, and we are more concerned with the bottom level of "computing power is power". We don't Care it must be POW, or POS. We believe that the future of POW, POS, AI+Fabric has a very bright future, but the combination of the two, because the basis of computing power is not enough, many applications have not appeared, what we need to do is always in the direction of computing power Go forward and go until AI+Blockchain has innovation.
▲ coin printing co-founder and CEO Zhu Xi
Before the general secretary stated his attitude, our attitude towards POS was particularly obvious. POS has many problems, and the biggest problem comes from its unfairness. Its unfairness will cause the POS currency to be air, which is our consistent attitude.
Regardless of who issued an asset, his goal is to make it worthwhile. But we know that value comes from the real society. At the very least, after the coin has value, I use it to buy things, change other people's houses and cars, others recognize this value, indicating that we have injected value from the real world. Where does this value come from? Someone must pay for it. If you pay to buy it, whoever buys it is the biggest problem. If someone doesn't know why, get the coin first, I will buy it with him, why. This buy is not the same as buying on the exchange. If I go to the founder and buy coins with the founders, it is unfair.
POW is fair. The logic of POW is to buy chips, consume electricity, and then get coins from the system. No one benefits, so POW is fair.
The unfairness of POS creates a concentration of chips, which can easily lead to centralization. A series of advantages of POS, high performance, no energy waste, etc. Who is good for these advantages? To the center. The power of POS comes from the center. In the past, there was no center for blockchain requirements, but, for example, the medical chain, its credit must come from mainstream hospitals (which is very contradictory). Now, with the support of the national government, everything is different.
Coin Printing is now also studying related high-performance blockchains, alliance chains, and new POS-based mechanisms to study some applications of blockchains.
▲F2Pool partner and COO big fish
The fish pond can see all the POW currency, we also have some Staking service, internal use, will be considered when appropriate. The other two shareholders of Yuchi, they are deeply involved in Staking. We are not rejecting, or not doing Staking at all, doing it, and the depth is quite deep.
Because Staking is born with some unfair factors, I agree very much. But the existence is reasonable. If the miners have this demand, we will definitely do it. We will choose to launch the external Staking service at the appropriate time. The fish pond also has this piece of planning.
Question: POW, can an algorithm only survive in one currency?
In fact, in the non-mainstream or sub-mainstream currencies of the algorithm, security does have certain problems. An attack occurred on Bitcoin gold in 2018.
The facts are here, there are many currencies, maybe the top five mines, their computing power is enough to launch 51% attack, attack a secondary mainstream, or the third mainstream of the same algorithm currency, this situation you think is Is it safe? Can you ensure that the three or four mines will not unite to do this? The encrypted mine pool is an anonymous world, and anyone who does what is not known. Now that many chains have no problems, they have fully explained the goodwill of the industry.
Question: Dominic, how do you see the fact that a pure POW will have a 51% attack?
When the gain is far greater than the price paid, 51% of the attacks will definitely occur.
Decred uses the hybrid consensus mechanism of POW+POS, which involves a problem. How do we get out of the block? The miners will pack the block. After finding the block, the POS node will check whether the block meets the consensus rules. Decred's POS and Staking are completely different from other projects.
Decred has a philosophy of giving power to money holders, so-called stakeholders. Our Staking approach requires the DCR to be pledged on the main web, to purchase a ballot via DCR, to verify the legitimacy of the block through the ballot, and the power to participate in the system on the chain and under the chain.
Our votes are floating across 40,960 tickets. If you want to launch a 51% attack, you need to get more than half of the votes. The cost of buying a lot of votes is high. This kind of hybrid consensus mechanism can effectively prevent 51% of attacks, which is why the same algorithm's super cash has not hit 51% attack so far, because it is not only the computing power to achieve the standard, but also needs to hold a large number of votes. , increased its cost.
▲Decred Chinese community leader Dominic
Question: Zhang Li, how do you see this POW+POS trend?
Obviously, POW itself is a relatively way to make everyone more fair to get benefits, you provide services, you work for you to get. If you don't provide this service, you won't get it.
If you take POS coins today, they are allocated according to resources. Because I hold coins, I have land, so everything on this land is mine. This is completely different from POW. If everyone thinks that resources are a fairer way, I have nothing to say.
I think there is a basic idea that all powers are waiting for what you have paid for. All powers are not equal. It must be staged. This stage of unequality will one day be subverted, because it is not balanced, it is as simple as that.
Question: What do you think about the trend of future blockchain consensus mechanism development and integration?
Consensus is not to be integrated. Like POW is a fair mechanism. It is especially suitable for us to do decentralization. People must use POW for things they do spontaneously. I have already said that POS is unfair. Qu always sent a coin. I bought it. Do you think this is appropriate? It seems that there is a problem. Because he is printing on the printer, what I am jealous is real money.
Centralization must go POS, Dpos, and alliance chains, because you don't have to consume energy to create credit. Credit can come from the center. Folk, transnational, and many organizations must use decentralized things. The two will not merge and there is no need to merge.
Big fish: Fusion is not necessarily the future.
But we can get a consensus today when we sit here. The consensus algorithm is one of the greatest advances of mankind, one of the greatest advancements. Because it solves a particularly difficult problem in human history – can you believe in human nature. I don't think so.
If a train comes over and there are 50 people in front, you can choose to take it to the side. There are two people in front of you, you are not worried. How to choose is all reasonable. Do not test human nature, do not predict human nature, through the consensus mechanism of cryptography and mathematics, so that we do not rely on human nature, through technical means to let things run under certain rules, this is a particularly large innovation we have experienced.