On the afternoon of November 9, the 2019 World Blockchain Conference hosted by Babbitt Wuzhen entered the final theme forum at the Wuzhen Internet International Convention and Exhibition Center – "New Potential, New Decade". As the heavyweight dialogue of this summit, "domestic public chain dialogue: where are you and me in the next decade?" is also performed in this field.
Internet giants are running into the market. Does the public chain team choose to compete or cooperate? Does quantum computing make the blockchain worthless? In the current context, how do domestic public chains face international competition? … In response to these problems, the founders of several head public chain projects, and the industry's senior evangelists, investors talked on the same stage, the on-the-spot collisions continued, the discussion was hearty, and the applause thundered.
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Round table guests:
长铗 | Babbitt and the founder of the original chain
Da Hongfei | Founder of NEO
Shuai Chu | Founder and CEO of Quantum Chain
Wu Ming | Conflux Co-founder and CTO
Han Feng | Columbia University Ph.D. student, Tsinghua University iCenter Mentor
Star Sky | Founder of the letter letter
Zhu Bo | Power Company / Dream Catcher Fund
Moderator Meng Da | Babbitt Vice President Commercial Director
In order to ensure the quality of reading, this article uses the form of dialogue to restore the scene as much as possible. The article is too long, the editors of the small partners vomiting blood, suggesting that the collection should be read.
The public chain team faces giants running into the competition, competition or cooperation?
Wonderful point of view:
• Long: The alliance chain and the public chain are not competitors, and the blockchain is implemented in different ways. At the same time, the integration of consensus mechanisms and applications is taking place.
• Shuai Chu: The public chain brings a lot of ideas to the alliance chain, but in some traditional IT service areas, the alliance chain will first land.
• Da Hongfei: The alliance chain and the public chain belong to different levels and will coexist in the future.
• Wu Ming: Sidechains may be a good opportunity to integrate alliance chains and public chains.
• Zhu Bo: The public chain is the most basic facility in the future, and the alliance chain is more like vertical industry application. The two are not competition.
Meng Da : Ali, Tencent and other Internet giants are accelerating the blockchain pace. Ant Jinfu also announced the "open alliance chain" on-line test at the opening ceremony yesterday. It is also obvious from the big factory's formulation. In the past two years, the “public chain” and the “chain of alliances” have actually merged and their attitudes are more open. Under such a new situation, how do domestic public chains face the challenge of giants entering the market, is there competition? Or how to cooperate?
Chang Hao : In the face of the alliance chain, we don't have too much competitive pressure. The giant's alliance chain solution and the public chain are not competitors, but the comrades of different tracks. We all use blockchain technology in different ways. Landing, but does not rule out the integration into a track at a certain stage of development. The ant's open alliance chain is also open, and the past has always been about access consensus.
There are also several convergence trends. On the one hand, the alliance chain needs to be open, on the other hand, the public chain must be compliant and must be self-controllable. Although the public chain is initially uncontrollable, with the future regulatory refinement (such as meeting the domestic market demand and regulatory environment), the public chain should also make some adjustments accordingly.
Speaking of the integration of the public chain and the alliance chain, I personally talk about a few points:
Fusion of consensus mechanisms : Some projects have both PoW and PoS features. In addition, the BaaS platform like the original chain supports both the PoW mining algorithm and the Byzantine fault-tolerant algorithm such as BFT, which becomes a pluggable way, and what consensus algorithm is used to become a consensus algorithm. The consensus mechanism becomes an option, which is the fusion of consensus mechanisms.
Application Fusion : There is no pure alliance chain and public chain application. In the past, we talked about DApp, and it seems that the application of blockchain is placed on the opposite side of the app, because there is Dapp with App. But we now find that there may be an intermediate solution, that is, there may be a converged application between Dapp and App, that is, BApp , which can have the characteristics of blockchain application, such as users managing their own accounts through private keys, addresses As well as his data and even assets, he may also use the non-tamperable nature of the blockchain to do the deposit service, but in some respects it uses many of the app's efficient features and centralized processing features. This is my opinion on fusion. Meng Dao : Just Chang Hao mentioned BApp, I remember Shuai Chu also mentioned this concept?
Shuai Chu : Yes, I remember when it was Wuzhen (blockchain summit) last year, it was also on the 2nd floor of the 4th building. The thinking at the time was that, in terms of applications, pure decentralization or centralization did not automatically increase the application scenario, or expand the value of the application, and more was an ideological problem.
For the entire public chain and alliance chain, the public chain is a technical experiment field full of idealism. The development of the public chain has brought many ideas and many technologies that can be borrowed to many alliance chains. It is also possible to see some convergence trends, including the Ethno-European alliance of enterprise alliances based on EVM virtual machines that Ether has done before, including some account systems, and some transformations to make it more compatible with data between enterprises. A scenario where value sharing can satisfy.
In the face of compliance with the public chain, I feel that there is really no clear answer at this stage. I think this is a path that will gradually become clear over time.
The country's promotion of blockchain development, the first landing should be in the field of alliance chain, can replace many of the original opaque, untrustworthy traditional IT services, I think this piece will be seized by the alliance chain market.
Da Hongfei : The alliance chain and the public chain belong to two different levels . A more accurate description of the public chain should be a license-free blockchain. Any business running on it does not require a centralized organization to recognize or permit you to do this, and the alliance chain has certain access and management mechanisms. In fact, these two can be achieved at different levels.
We look at the Internet, the infrastructure of the entire Internet is content neutral, I just pass the information, do not need to face the content and participants in the TCP / IP layer for strong management. So I think that in the future, the two can coexist .
Wu Ming : The alliance chain of Dachang and the public chain of the entrepreneurial team will not have too fierce competition in the public chain. I think there are several points:
1. Large factories are not easy to enter the public chain . Because the public chain has a lot of theoretical things besides engineering, it is to ensure safety. In fact, the technology of the public chain is very complicated, which makes it impossible for the big factory to take advantage of many engineers to carry on the issue of public chain development. Come to some unique advantages.
2. The gene of the alliance chain and the public chain itself are not too consistent , because the public chain is about decentralization, but the big factory itself represents a centralization, so it may not have much willingness to do this thing itself.
From a fusion perspective, I think there are many opportunities. For example, the side chain is a good combination of opportunities . For example, we all know the lightning network. Now the chain is done peer-to-peer. In fact, we face a problem. For example, when a user settles at the end, one user does not submit it. The last transaction, this time he needs to wait for a while, let another user confirm this, which requires two users must have continuous access to the public chain. This is a weakness of the lightning network and a place where the alliance chain can work. If the lightning network is completed on the support of a federated chain, it will reduce the user's requirement for the connectivity of the public chain itself, and it will be easier to use. The alliance chain can be used as a side chain implementation to integrate with the public chain. On the other hand, just now, Changchun also mentioned that the public chain can be used as part of its components as a BaaS system integrated in the alliance chain. ”
Zhu Bo : I think that the public chain and the alliance chain are in different dimensions. The public chain is the most basic facility in the future. The alliance chain is more like vertical industrial application, so there is no competition between the two . The public chain has entered a new chapter, and large companies such as Microsoft will definitely work on the public chain. The future public chain is actually the lowest-level infrastructure operating system of the future network, and its requirements for TPS are very high. Because someone told me that there is no application today, and I don't need such a big TPS. In fact, it is wrong because I didn't reach such a high TPS. Many applications don't want to come in, and they can't support it.
Cross-chain technology is popular, how to make a domestic public chain?
Meng Dao : Cross-chain is still a hot topic in the past two years. At present, all major public-chain projects have cross-chain solutions in layout, but each has different emphasis. Please talk about the progress in the cross-chain direction.
Chang Hao : There is indeed a difference between the cross-chain scheme of the original chain and the cross-chain schemes such as Cosmos on the market. They are essentially cross-chained through the complex exchange of smart contracts. I think there is a certain efficiency and governance. Difficulty. The cross-chain itself involves the issue of assets. The problems of assets are very sensitive. The assets emphasize the responsibility of who is responsible.
It is not the same as the original cross-chain solution. It is more than the original decentralized gateway, and the gateway's rights are dispersed, making any gateway more efficient in terms of efficiency than smart contracts. . The decentralized gateway is more than just a node. It is also an important business partner of the ecology. We call it a federated node. But the federated node is both an entry point for a cross-chain asset and a co-owner of the asset. Although it cannot separately roll away the currency in the cross-chain gateway, it is indeed a co-host. Therefore, based on the assets under custody, you can do a lot of things, such as stabilizing coins and borrowing, which can generate huge profits. Therefore, compared to the original federal node as an ecological partner, through the cross-chain construction of the ecology, and gain huge benefits , making everyone a very powerful commercial federal group, a bit like Libra's federal governance program.
Shuai Chu : The whole industry is still in the early stage. If the entire cross-chain application scenario is to be rolled out, it will take a very long time. The quantum chain is mainly from the perspective of privacy, such as some valuable assets, should not be transparent, business still needs secrets, including who holds national debt, who holds some assets, etc. Some information should not be used for commercial purposes. Transparent. Therefore, we have done a lot of cross-chain research from the perspective of privacy .
Now the ecology of the public chain is very weak, and the long-term cross-chain between different chains is not just a exchange of values, because purely value exchange from bitcoin to quantum chain or from quantum chain to bitcoin, I think This demand is less clear in the industry because most of the demand can be converted through decentralized and centralized exchanges.
Future smart contracts are really being commercialized on a large scale, and there may be a lot of data interaction requirements or logical interaction requirements. I think that at that stage, it may be time for the cross-chain to really take advantage of it. I think it is still relatively early.
Da Hongfei : Most people talk about cross-chain is the cross-chain of assets, moving from A chain to B chain. Because the goal we want to achieve is to update the architecture of the Internet, so we do a cross-chain is a superset, data asset transfer is a subset, and this superset is the consistency of data assets. For example, we envision a scenario with four independent systems, one is NEO, the user has many assets on it; the second is Ontology, the user has his own information on it; the third is 12306, the train ticket is ordered; the fourth It is a system for booking airline tickets. The function I want to achieve now is that I have set a plane ticket, it rains the next day, I want to change the high-speed rail ticket, but I don’t want to refund the plane ticket, because I am afraid of retreating but I can’t buy a high-speed rail ticket. I hope that the database of airline tickets and the database of high-speed rail tickets are atomic operations. The money I paid may be the money that NEO assets sell, and I use ONT to provide identity information to buy tickets, so what we have to do is the consistency of cross-chain things, which is also being explored.
Meng Dawei : I just discussed the different dimensions of the cross-chain, but I know that for cross-chain, Stars does not seem to be very optimistic about related applications?
Starry Sky : Yes, I think there is a problem with cross-chaining. For example, we have a lot of bitcoin, transferred to a weaker chain, you transfer a lot of assets to the public vulnerable chain, how to solve this problem? I think cross-chain first needs to solve security . Many of these cross-chain implementations, the private key must be online in real time; and after the past, it is a hot library with security issues. Everyone is talking about a very beautiful state, a beautiful story, but we did not expect that there are still many problems that have not been resolved.
Zhu Bo : We can't look at chains and cross-chains in isolation. We should stand on the whole. I think that the future blockchain must have a DID , decentralized personal identity. The public and private keys owned by this identity should be used in all future public chains to solve the problem of information security. Today, the blockchain has reached another stage and cannot stand on a chain to see the problem. I think the blockchain 1.0 has already turned over. The so-called Bitcoin 1.0, Ethereum 2.0, EOS3.0, I personally think that it is still the stage of 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, and now it is really in the blockchain 2.0 era.
Public chain evolution direction discussion
Wonderful point of view:
• Shuai Chu: The public chain is difficult to become the next Internet infrastructure in the future, but it can become the next new agreement for clear settlement of high-value applications on the Internet.
• Zhu Bo: The TPS of the public chain must achieve certain performance to support future value exchange.
• Wu Ming: The public chain should be able to have continuous technical output and continuously solve new problems.
• Han Feng: The data of the public chain should be involved in the calculation so that the value can be reflected. The next generation should be the privacy and credibility of personal data.
• Starry Sky: The biggest problem to be solved by the public chain is security.
• Long: Although the public chain is going to explore in different directions, it will eventually be the same.
Meng Dao: Let's talk about the next generation of the Internet, the next generation of blockchain, then what is the next generation or the next trend of the public chain evolution?
Shuai Chu : I want to respond to Mr. Zhu's question simply. We also have a lot of thoughts on this issue, and it is also an expectation for industry practitioners. I don't think the expectations of Internet 3.0 should be pinned on the public chain.
Looking back at the development history of the whole industry, Bitcoin is the representative of high-quality assets. In essence, Ethereum is an efficient management of assets. Through the contract, our management level of Ethereum has been greatly improved and replaced. Bitcoin simple multi-sign.
The ultimate goal of the public chain is to become a clear settlement agreement for high-value circulation symbols. The public chain does not naturally have strong extreme computing power and storage capacity . Ethereum and Bitcoin are essentially single-line computers with 8,000 or 13,000 nodes. The power of this computer is limited by physical hardware. How do you expect a consumer-grade application to grow up, his storage, calculations, Even communications may have to be performed outside the chain, and eventually valuable symbols are placed on the chain for settlement. From this perspective, I think that the public chain is difficult to become the next generation Internet infrastructure, but he can become the new protocol for clearing settlement of high-value applications for the next generation of the Internet; and the other part of the infrastructure really needs to be present in the industry. Human exploration includes distributed operations, distributed storage, distributed computing, and a combination of these different modules. And the positioning of the public chain, I think we must have a clearer understanding.
Zhu Bo: Actually, I am similar to the original meaning of the handsome, the so-called blockchain as the next generation of infrastructure, in fact, computing and storage must not be in the chain. Why the next generation is based on the blockchain as the underlying infrastructure, edge computing, edge storage and 5G are the entire network architecture. But as a public chain, it does not require calculations or storage, but it requires a high degree of processing power for all certain rights and valuable things. Not contradictory. The only point is that I believe that the TPS of the public chain must achieve certain performance in order to support future value exchange .
Wu Ming : There are many directions for the development of the next generation of public chains. Because the public chain actually has many components, it has storage, network, execution and consensus, and these things will become the bottleneck of the system. In order for the performance of the blockchain to become higher and higher, we must have sustained breakthroughs in all aspects. For example, Conflux now solves the bottleneck of consensus, but soon we will find that the performance of storage is now a bottleneck, we must improve the performance of storage in order to make the system a new level. For the public chain team, one of the most important features is the ability to have continuous technical output . We are not just solving one problem. We must constantly solve new problems.
Han Feng : The future development of the public chain has a very important problem. It is necessary to extend the credibility of the current public chain to the entire computing environment of the Internet . Data is right to the individual, this is not difficult to do, the key is that the data has to participate in the operation, because you do not participate in the operation, how the data reflects its value. Originally, Ethereum and smart contracts have taken a big step forward, and it can start to have such operations. But the amount of computation of smart contracts is minimal. The next generation should be the privacy and credibility of personal data .
Starry Sky : First, the public chain only needs to solve one problem – security . All TPS, all trading boundaries, including all useful levels, should pass through a variety of BaaS. Therefore, I always think that as long as the public chain is safe, it does not require any TPS, nor does it need to integrate capacity. As long as who is the safest, who has the greatest value. So the only standard in the public chain is security, including the Ethereum model, including smart contracts. I also think that smart contracts can solve the problem of transaction intelligence in the BaaS layer, such as sidechain and lightning network.
Second, the future head effect of the public chain will be very obvious , because all sidechain and blockchain applications must be based on the most valuable network. The more people, the more money, the more users will use it. Now you can see that the story can be said, one is the Bitcoin network, and the other is the DC/EP discussed at the national level.
Chang Hao : In fact, everyone is forming a consensus, for example, the layering of Dahongfei, for example, the main side chain structure we have made than the original chain, which corresponds to his Layer1, Layer2, and Zhu’s The alliance chain may correspond to the vertical field, and the main chain is aimed at the more open field. In fact, many chains do this, and they all use a main side or a main multi-side combination to adapt to different business scenarios. Although everyone is exploring in different directions, the final result is one .
“Is the blockchain worthless in the face of quantum computing?”
Wonderful point of view:
• Han Feng: Blockchain and quantum computing are not a concept, they solve different problems.
• Zhu Bo: For quantum computing, the blockchain industry needs to be aware of the dangers.
• Shuai Chu: Quantum computing is not a general-purpose calculation, and should not be worried in the short term.
• Starry sky: Ren Zhengfei may not know much about the blockchain, and the blockchain is more in consensus.
• Long: The mature commercial quantum computer still takes 20-30 years, and even if it comes early, there is time to respond.
Meng Da : I just discussed a lot of public chains. I want to ask Mr. Han a question. Mr. Han has been paying attention to the research related to quantum computing. In the past two days, we saw Ren Zhengfei’s opinion. His original words are that many people will block. How great the chain is, but it is worthless in the face of quantum computing. What do you think of this point of view?
Han Feng : Ren Zong first put the blockchain and quantum computing completely in the same year-on-year. This is not right , not a concept, and the problem to be solved is not the same. Quantum computing is to solve computational problems and improve human computing power. The blockchain is not to solve this problem. The blockchain is to solve the problems of data assets, data finance, future distributed contract execution, and solving economic and financial problems. Second, if there is quantum computing, will the blockchain be vulnerable? Let's talk about Google's so-called quantum hegemony. First of all, Google Quantum Computing is not a general-purpose calculation, it solves the problem of random numbers. But it is still far from the entire general quantum computing, and certainly not that this thing is useless. Of course, we also discussed the selection of random numbers. In the future, quantum computing algorithms are useful for fragmentation and improve efficiency. This is useful, but it is called quantum hegemony exaggeration. It is not that with quantum computing, Bitcoin will not work. This matter will go hand in hand and develop.
Shuai Chu : The entire quantum computing attack on our existing blockchain system, if it is to be realized, may take decades to develop . Because quantum computing is inherently a solution to some specific problems, it is not a general-purpose computing domain. And if one day quantum computing can solve the problem of general computing, perhaps the first to be broken is the encryption system of all the Internet and all the financial systems this year. I think Bitcoin has been done with the iteration of developers. A lot of upgrades. I think this aspect may not be what we should worry about in the short term.
Zhu Bo : I tried to round out my former boss (Ren Zhengfei). I think he still has a context in this statement. Basically, he has a sense of worry every time. Maybe we think that what happened more than a decade later may happen in the development of science and technology today, and it may happen in a few years. Therefore, the boss raised this question, in fact, it is a wake-up call for the entire blockchain industry. I personally think that if quantum mechanics rises today, it is vulnerable to today's strength. I think that every one of us who is doing blockchain must have a sense of urgency .
Starry Sky : When the boss said this sentence, I think he didn't know anything about the blockchain. Although the blockchain is a new thing based on encryption technology, the blockchain is more of a consensus. That is to say, everyone agrees that when bitcoin is worth the money, we can immediately change the encryption algorithm. Everyone will agree that Bitcoin continues. Valuable, so don't worry about the advancement of various technologies. As long as everyone's consensus is there, there is no problem at all .
Han Feng : I think he (Starry Sky) said something more essential. You can use quantum computing to achieve consensus.
Nagase : Actually, this problem was encountered when I first came into contact with Bitcoin. I still remember that one or two geeks will have a patient response. However, I have observed it for a few days. This time, the general question was issued, and there was no expert response from the circle.
In fact, this matter has long been conclusive. First, we know that mature commercial quantum computers or corresponding algorithms pose a threat to bitcoin or blockchains from asymmetric encryption. But even the most primitive blockchain has some anti-quantumity. First, it does not directly use the public key as the user address. With the public key, the user's private key can be reversed. If the user accepts the currency using an address that has never been used, his currency is still safe. That is to say, if one day quantum computing is available beyond our imagination, the user only needs to hit the currency to an address that has never been used, and the asset is safe.
Second, mature commercial computer or corresponding algorithm may take 30 years or 20 years to come out, but the commercial version of anti-quantum algorithm only takes three or five years, so why worry about the spear that can be launched in 30 years? But its shield can come out in three or five years, so we never worry about this in our industry. So I believe that one day the Black Swan event, I just said is a 30-year pre-judgment mistake. It is possible that the Black Swan will arrive tomorrow. I think all the users in the circle still have time to react , for example, One of the simplest options is to hit your own currency at an address that you have never used before, and then upgrade your Quantum Computing version.
Meng Da : The last question, do you think that the current moment is a good time for China's blockchain entrepreneurs? How to attract global policy, technology and other talents to participate in the ecological construction of China's blockchain?
Zhu Bo : I think it is the best time to start a blockchain business . There are two reasons: First, it is clear today at the national policy level. As far as I know, before October 24, mainstream investment institutions basically did not look at blockchain projects, and even clearly stipulated that they would not vote for blockchain. But now many mainstream investment institutions have come back, running into the learning blockchain. So I believe this wave should be a little hotter than artificial intelligence, but the real investment boom will be after the second and third spring of next year.
I suggest that people who want to start a business today must make it clear that mainstream investors will not invest in the public chain because they feel that they do not understand. Most people consider using blockchain, edge computing, and storage technology to transform the Internet today. In this regard, there will be a large number of investment institutions investment, I suggest that everyone in this field to dig deep, plus 5G, I believe this will become a wave of investment in the second quarter of next year .
Starry Sky : I very much agree that the national chain policy will be good, the blockchain investment will be very hot. At the same time, don't forget one thing: we have cooled down in the blockchain boom of 2017 and 2018. It is a very good time to do blockchain entrepreneurship now, because many people have helped us to falsify many needs. Second, I think blockchain, public chain, some bitcoin-based sidechains or DC/EP-based sidechains will be very hot in the future , because DC/EP and Bitcoin are the biggest networks in the future .
Wu Ming : I think it is a good time to enter the blockchain . Just one more question is what we can do to attract global investment and technology embrace. There are two aspects here: First, the technical aspects, that is, we need to work hard to explore the advanced nature of blockchain technology, we should constantly propose new technologies to maintain the leading position of technological inventions in the world. On the other hand, we should strive to develop better applications of blockchains. China has always been very strong in the application of this matter. The technology of the Internet originated from the United States, but the application of China is obviously better than that of the United States. We have WeChat, Alipay, and Vibrato. The convenience of Chinese people enjoying Internet applications is better than that of the United States. a lot of. However, the application of the Internet is difficult to promote to the world, that is to say, it occurs and develops in China, but it is difficult to affect the people of the world. The blockchain has a good opportunity. The public chain is borderless and decentralized at the beginning, which makes us have a convenient way to become more internationalized when developing decentralized applications.
Shuai Chu : In fact, there are indeed two good opportunities for Chinese entrepreneurs. One is for the entire global Internet. Chinese technology developers have a very large space to display and put forward some original ideas , such as solving Distributed domain name, storage, computing, and even integration with AI, machine learning, 5G technology. Another point, returning to the real world, how do we integrate blockchain technology with our economic activities? I think there are also things worth doing in this area.
Da Hongfei : I think this is the best era, but it may become a worst era . Any huge potential technology will challenge or promote greed and fear in human nature.
Many people think that the blockchain is a huge bubble, but in fact it has not been transmitted to the mainstream capital market, because listed companies that are not related to the blockchain have relatively large market capitalization.
But in the next few years, I believe that some companies with blockchain backgrounds will be seen in the global capital market to become more important players in this market. At this time, coupled with the high expectations of everyone, there will be a surge of waves coming to us. Some people should fasten their seat belts, and some people should pick up your surfboards and finally let us come together to meet this raging wave.
Nagase : Like all the distinguished guests, my current state is more exciting and more optimistic about the future. I want to use Han Feizi's sentence, which is particularly suitable for the present. "The ancient competition for morality, the middle of the world for the wisdom, and the current struggle for strength ", I think the three stages he can talk about can also be used in the blockchain industry.
In ancient times, everyone was convinced by virtue, and the blockchain was the same. In ancient times, it was all based on honesty, no one was in charge of you, so some people came in chaos, some people cut the leeks, but eventually went on and insisted on The last thing is to be honest and ethical.
The Middle Ages have become an era of contending for a hundred schools of thought, and there are all kinds of strategists and strategists. In the era of Han Feizi and the Warring States Period, it became the era of armed competition. Fortunately, the blockchain has not yet entered an era of armed competition.
In fact, we are in the second era, the era of various technological innovations, business innovations, and product innovations, because the giants have not really entered the market. Because when technological innovation, business model innovation, and product innovation are already very clear, even when the regulatory environment is already clear and perfect, it is impossible for us to do things like the grassroots and relatively start-up teams. At that time, it was completely turned into a giant crushing, through the crushing of manpower, the crushing of intelligence, and the crushing of capital. So I think that our current blockchain practitioners are in the best era and the best stage to do things .
Meng Da : Thank you very much for reaching a consensus on the last issue. For China's blockchain entrepreneurs, it is indeed the best time, and it is also the time to compete for strength. I hope everyone here can grasp the present. The best opportunity for the times, everyone is still there in the next decade. thank you all.